IC Inbox (Snowblind)

[dravanicide]

@Estibien

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[dravanicide]

[He's quiet for a moment, mainly because his mind goes straight to Dravanians. How he provoked and antagonized Lady Iceheart whenever she spoke of man and dragon working together, that there was ever peace between them. He purposefully spoke down to her, was aggressive with the peaceful Dravanians, threatening to gouge out the eye of one in particular...

He supposes he can see a similarity, maybe. But he doubts their aversion comes from something as deeply traumatic as his, and thus theirs is built from childishness, and naught else.]

Whilst I will not deny that there is one such topic that could indeed nudge me int defensiveness, I scant believe they've the same reasoning.

However, you are proposing they go unpunished for their ill actions, and I cannot stand by that. There is a debt owed for their poor choices, and if you wish to give them carrots for their good behavior thereafter, I will not stand in your way, but I will not spare the rod and spoil them for their misbehaving.

[jumpthegun]

No, they probably don't have the same reasoning, but you don't know what their reasoning is. That's sort of the point, Mr. Estinien. None of us knows very much about each other. Making snap judgements based on our own worlds and their truths leads to conflicts that aren't necessary. Especially when we don't really know the people we're talking to or what they've been through. I know someone here who's seen what people in my world would consider unimaginable horrors. They've lived through being treated as nothing more than a science experiment, forced into doing something they didn't want to because they weren't allowed to have a voice. They've come out of all of that they're still trying to find their feet to be the best person that they can, in spite of it all. They don't talk about what's happened to them very much, they hide what's happened, so a lot of people wouldn't ever be able to guess at that.

I'm not suggesting they go without punishment, but I'm already providing that reprimand to them. They'll take it better coming from me, someone they trust, than you. Do you have a commander that you respect and admire? Would disappointing them feel like a punishment to you? Maybe even worse than if they'd just picked up a sword and cut you?

[dravanicide]

I know not why you speak as such to me, when I was not the aggressor in this situation. I realize I know naught of their experience, but little does it matter in the long run. I would gladly take what consequences spring forth of mine own actions should I react in haste upon mine own sensitive topic. I know well my experience, and that those who are not privy of such may not give me quarter for how I act because of it.

'Tis just the way things are. How the world works. You fight for what you believe in, and you make what sacrifices there needs be made in that effort. If they believe so strongly in their convictions, enough to provoke one such as I, then they should face me as the combatants they have postured themselves to be. Though they act as children, they are not. Treating them as such I ill see the benefit.

[He doesn't answer the question, however.]

[jumpthegun]

Because you're the one who's been talking of actual violence. Angel and Rhys aren't fighters. They a very small woman who's probably never picked up a weapon in her life and a very thin man who used to work an office job, not fight.

[He might be exaggerating their helplessness a little here for effect, but so it goes.]

I doubt you'd even find any satisfaction in fighting them. You'd hit them once and they'd go down. I know you can have more patience than other people who have treated you with less, Mr. Estinien. You're a soldier. You know what it is to bide your time and set things aside for the greater good of a mission.

If you need someone to punish for them acting out, I'll offer myself. I can take it, and I'm Rhys' attending physician. He is and has been my responsibility, even if I'm not his commanding officer.

[dravanicide]

You seem to be missing some of the details of our feud, for 'twas not I who first threatened violence. If they are so weak, then they should not make threats to a man who does not take lightly of such.

I will not punish you, you are not involved, and had you truly cared to be his attendant, then you would have been involved sooner. Where were you when they were both provoking and aiming threats at me? Had you truly worried of what consequences would befall them, or that you cared to keep Rhys in line, I imagine you would have interjected sooner.

Or perhaps you did not see me a threat then, so you allowed them to blather on with reckless abandon, but now you realize I am not one to take lightly. Which is it, Dr. Watson.

[jumpthegun]

I'm not with them and can't keep constant tabs on them, Mr. Estinien. I try to do what I can, but I didn't see your initial confrontation until well after it was over. I didn't feel it was appropriate to interject publicly at that time. I decided to let it lie and see if they'd resolve it on their own once they cooled off a bit. They haven't.

And now there are other people getting dragged into this who shouldn't be. That's why I'm coming to you now. They can't resolve it, you're not backing down from your position, either. Third-party mediation is necessary at this point before you go threatening other innocent people. And I'm not talking about Rhys and Angel. They're not innocent in this, even if I think you're going overboard on punishment for their foolishness.

[dravanicide]

You are speaking of that robot that pretends to be a modest maiden, do you not?

[His voice is calm, and what agitation there once was has died. It's an aloofness that doesn't fit the otherwise rough cadence his voice carries.]

'Twould seems it has bewitched you enough to garner your sympathy. Ill fortune, that.

[jumpthegun]

Her name is Luna, Mr. Estinien, and whatever you might think about her status as a person, she's done nothing but try to help the people here since she arrived. If you ever threaten her again, I'll be speaking with your superior about the proper discipline for a soldier who proactively threatens a civilian when they've done absolutely nothing to warrant it.

[He's assuming Aymeric is Estinien's superior.]

[dravanicide]

If it is truly as harmless as you believe it to be, then you will find my threat similar. 'Twas in the event it ever proves to be naught like it postures itself to be: if it becomes a danger, or hurts any I find valuable. 'Tis rather suspect you find need in threatening me if you are so convinced of the machine's charity and good nature.

You can speak to the Lord Commander if you see fit, but your words may not have the effect you seek.

[Technically Aymeric is higher standing than Estinien, but Estinien cares little for the chain of command. He does what he wants, when he wants to do it. His is a position chosen of skill and divine right, and so he often gets away with things other men would not.]

[jumpthegun]

Mr. Estinien, consider if someone you think of as a good person, a kind and helpful person, were to be threatened by someone else for seemingly no reason or for anything that they have any control over. Would you simply say nothing, or would you warn that person that that kind of behavior is unacceptable and there will be consequences if they do it again?

Luna hasn't hurt anyone, she's not planning to. The fact that you feel the need to threaten someone like that says far more about your character than it does about mine when I'm just telling you not to do it again to her or any other robots here who are just trying to get on with their lives and escape along with the rest of us. Luna might not be the only robot here. If you try what you did on her with anyone else, I'll also see to contacting your superior. I already know beating it into your head isn't going to be effective, so that's the viable alternative I have.

[dravanicide]

Had I done this towards a good person, I might see your point. However, as it stands, I did no such thing.

[With slight amusement:]

If you wish to speak to Aymeric, I suggest you do so. If you think such idle threats will waver any such future threats I may make to the robot of your questionable fancy, you are overestimating how much I concern myself with the conversation such will inspire.

[jumpthegun]

I love her, and she's my friend. If you want to tell me a woman who dreams, who emotes, who feels pain, who eats like all of us, who has a life and a history, a name, hopes, ambitions, and goals, isn't a person, then I'm not sure what you would consider a person, sir. Is it because she's made of metal, not bone? Is every living thing in your world made of the exact same thing?

[dravanicide]

I will confess that it puts on a convincing display, and that you have fallen for it like a fool. That you would have such intimate feelings for the machine bespeaks well of its maker and his talents, or mayhap your depravity.

A person is born, not created, and whilst living creatures in Eorzea vary greatly, they all share something at their core: a soul. A machine has no such thing, though I have heard some are powered by aether, 'tis not the same.

[jumpthegun]

How do you know in her universe that machines aren't instilled with a soul? That there isn't a god who looks down, sees what's been made, and places one there. This is what I mean about getting trapped into your own universe's rules, Mr. Estinien. There is no one like Luna in my world.

Where I come from, robots are all just objects, machines. She is so much more than that, though. What are the qualities that define a soul? I can almost guarantee you she'll have them or I'll be able to find someone here who was born who doesn't if you can actually name them.

[dravanicide]

I greatly have my doubts of that, that some deity would look at men who wish to play god and grant their creation the same pulse of life they had granted them. If you've proof of such happenings, I would consider such, but you speak of hopeful claptrap and naught more.

A soul is not so easily quantified, you should know this. Any man born has a soul, 'tis what breathes life into him, what makes his existence be. Little is it measured by such frivolous things as qualities of a character. Your desperation to prove its personhood ill becomes you, and the others who follow a similar path.

[jumpthegun]

What breathes life into a person is a set of lungs and electrical impulses through his nervous system that tell his body what involuntary actions to take at birth. If you'd like proof of a nervous system, that I could show you with a dissection on one of the bodies in the mass grave to the north.

Luna has died and been revived here. She's suffered the same symptoms as all of us for radiation poisoning. She has our same limitations for the cold and food. She is a person in every quantifiable way, mentally, physically, and spiritually. I understand that this is a difficult concept for you to grasp because of the limitations of your own universe, but all of the information and proof is there for you.

[dravanicide]

When it "dies", if not for the resurrection process here, would its consciousness find itself among the firmament? I think not. We revive, it merely gets fixed. Not unlike a broken blade reforged, but little do we go around giving pronouns to swords or claiming it being a person.

If you think such blathering will convince me, you are mistaken and wasting both of our time. Whilst I freely admit that such anatomical details elude me—medical fields are not my forte and your world has advancements where mine does not—it changes naught. A soul is still required for life in men, in beasts, even in gods.

But not a machine.

[jumpthegun]

Mr. Estinien, has it occurred to you that you're not actually flesh and bone anymore? You may, in fact, be riding around in a false body with your memories overlaid on it. We watched Haurchefant's entire body be dissolved. It's in the public record that's been linked multiple times. But he's here now. How is that possible if his body wasn't replaced?

[So maybe he's just using some scare tactics now, but dammit if he can't get this man to empathize with Luna's plight.]

This isn't meant to scare you, but to make a point. Even if all of that were true, if this isn't the body that once housed your soul, would you still be a person? What if it's only the memories of you that they've copied over and left the man that you were back in the universe where he belongs? Are you still a person, then?

[dravanicide]

I'd be a shade of the person I once was, which speaks more of me and the others, than it does for Luna.

[Oh what's that? he said her name!]

Point being, it's still a machine back whence it came from, while you and I are not. If they are placing our souls, or fragments of such, in new bodies, it changes not my argument.

cw: discussion of pregnancy/souls/this is all controversial stuff, i know

[jumpthegun]

[He did say her name. John makes note of that. Perhaps he's getting through to an extent.]

Mr. Estinien, you and I are, regardless, biological machines. Our components are organic, but we both function the same way Luna does. We both require energy. Our wiring is through our nervous system. We're 'programmed' with certain reflexes at birth and develop new ones through a standard process of growth and development.

When is a soul inserted into a body in your world? When do you talk about it happening? Is it at conception? What about for miscarriages before a woman even knows she's pregnant? Was a soul lost? Is it only once a baby is actually out in the world? Some people would argue that's too late for a soul to come in, and why is there a sudden switch flipped only at birth?

[dravanicide]

Conception is the consensus. If a baby is lost due to miscarriage, we pray that the soul finds its way to heaven. I claim not to be an expert when it comes to souls and aether, but I know enough that they exist, that they are absolutely needed for life.

Though how they manifest can be different depending on the being, but every being born that lives through such has one.

[Which... explains some views on still births, for example. Also, seeing as he's lugging around the physical manifestation of a soul, or half of one, he's very reasonably convinced in his argument for souls. Especially when this one has existed for a veritable eternity.]

[jumpthegun]

And where do souls come from, according to your religion? Your deity? Is my soul the result of your deity? If we don't hail from the same universe. I believe in a higher power, too. But I think a soul is something a person develops as they become aware of themselves. I think it would be very possible for someone like Luna to develop a soul in my world based on the beliefs I hold.

How is that less valid when your beliefs are based just as much in simple faith?

[dravanicide]

Belief is one thing, hard facts are another. Have you proof of such? Of souls spawning well after a man is born without one?

Whilst we have our beliefs of where souls may go once a man dies, or what deital influences they have received in life, there is physical proof that souls are not merely developed after one is born. For example: Dravanians. Their souls manifest in their eyes, 'tis the key to their formidable power as well, which they have from the moment they hatch. Whilst ours are far more internal than that, we follow similar rules.

Where souls originate is up to debate, there are those whom claim they know better than others, those who spend their lives researching such topics. I am not one of them.

[He is not Sharlayan, and he won't pretend to be. There's a lot of his own faith in this topic, but there is also evidence as well.]

[jumpthegun]

We don't have physical souls where I'm from, Mr. Estinien. We have no proof of deities beyond the wonder of the world around us. My world has no magic. Everything is faith and belief if you're going to hold any religious conviction. But I'll say this again: This is not your universe. It's not your world. Please try to consider that there are things in the multiverse beyond your ken and there very likely is where Luna is concerned.

And know that she important to me. If that means 'as an object to you,' then I'm sorry you think that way. But if you hurt her, you'll be hurting me. I won't abide that when she's done nothing to you. And I don't just me you physically attacked her. She feels things. You can do as much damage with words as you can with a sword.

Please don't. She's been through too much already.

[dravanicide]

I have admitted that there is such beyond my ken. I know not all the intricate details that goes into robots or machines, but you have done little to fill that gap, so one would wager you know just as little.

I have not sought her out since I issued my warning to her, I had been content to leave things be unless she crossed the line I laid. 'Twas you who opened this topic once more, 'twas you who dug into this issue, and breathed life into it once more.

And if I say aught to her again, you can place the blame on yourself.